Curse

Corpselooter · Nov 10, 2007, 08:03 AM // 08:03

So i've been watching rangers for a while in pvp, and really, the only skills that ever see use is Cripshot, RaO and BA.

As a result i have some skill suggestions. Rate or Hate really.

Beast Mastery

Rampage as One (lulz) - 15e, 15r. Elite Stance, for 5..10 seconds you and your pet move and attack 25% faster.

The rest of the attribute line fails, i can't even be assed.

Expertise
Archer's Signet - 1/4s, 12r. Elite Signet. Your next 3..6 bow attacks do +10 damage and cost -5 energy.

Lightning Reflexes - 5e, 20r. Stance. For 1...7 seconds you have 75% chance to block attacks, and you attack 33% faster.

Practiced Stance - 5e, 15r Elite Stance. For 20...32 seconds, your preparations recharge 50% faster and last 30...126% longer. You attack 15% faster and your arrows are 25% faster.

Markmanship

Arcing Shot - 5e, 5r Bow Attack. If this arrow hits, it strikes for +10...34 and cannot be blocked, but moves 150% slower.

Burning Arrow - 10e, 5r Elite Bow attack. If this attack hits, it strikes for +7..20 damage and causes burning for 1..6 seconds

Debilitating Shot - 10e 10r 1/2s. If this attack hits, your target is interrupted and loses 5..15 energy.

Power Shot - 5e 5r. If this attack hits, it strikes for +12..30 damage.

Precision Shot - 5e 4r 1/2s. If this attack hits it strikes for +10..22 damage and cannot be blocked. This attack is easily interrupted.

Punishing Shot - 10e 10r 1/2s. If this attack hits it interrupts the target and strikes for +10..22 damage. If a spell was interrupted it does an additional +10..30 damage. (Sloth Hunter's shot says hi)

Sundering Attack/ Penetrating Attack - 5e 3r. Bow Attack. If Sundering/ Penetrating Attack hits, you strike for +3...15 damage and this attack has 20% armor penetration.

Wilderness Survival

Barbed Arrows - 10e 12r 2s. Preparation. For 24 seconds, your arrows cause Bleeding for 3...13 seconds.

Dryder's Defenses - 10e 20r. Stance, for 1..7 seconds you have 75% block chance and +24..55 armour versus elemental damage.

Equinox - 5e 15r 3s. Elite Nature Ritual. Create a level 1...8 Spirit. Spells cast within its range cause 2 points of exhaustion. This Spirit dies after 30...126 seconds.

Ignite Arrows - 5e 12r 2s. Preparation. For 24 seconds your arrows cause burning for 1..2 seconds.

Incendiary Arrows - 5e 24r 2s. Elite Preparation. For 3...18 seconds, targets struck by your arrows are interrupted and set on fire for 1...3 seconds.

Poison Arrow - 5e 1r. Elite bow attack. If this attack hits your target is poisoned for 3..18 seconds. If you hit a poisoned foe this attack strikes for +5..13 damage.

Scavenger's Focus - 5e 12r 2s. Elite Preparation. Your attacks strike for +5..10 for each condition your target is suffering. Maximum +5..25 damage.

Troll Unguent - 5e 15r 1s. Skill. You gain +9 health regeneration for 3..10 seconds.

Quick Shot - Remove aftercast.

Lulz.

Riotgear · Nov 10, 2007, 08:16 AM // 08:16

I think in discussions like these, emphasis is put too much on "buff the crap" than going for an objective. The reason the repeated buffs to other interrupts keep failing to derail Savage Shot and Distracting Shot is because both of those two are extremely good at what they do. Same with Natural Stride. Same with Cripshot/BA/BHA as elites. Same with Apply Poison as the prep. It's not exactly easy to get past those without being overpowered because they simply provide everything you'd want without any of the drawbacks that could make them suck.

So here's the question: What would you like to see rangers doing differently that they don't do now?

Quick Shot's aftercast is extremely short, by the way.

Div · Nov 10, 2007, 08:21 AM // 08:21

The only things I'd really care to see changed is:

RaO: nerf to hell. I don't care. I'm sick of thumpways. But seeing as izzy likes skill-less stuff like thumpway and sineptitude, it won't get changed.

Troll unguent: 2 second cast.

Buffing the rest of the stuff still won't make them see play (because it still sucks compared to the necessary ranger stuff now), or will make it OP (like your version of debil shot). Plus apparently Anet can't handle big lists of balance stuff, so starting with 2 ranger skills changed is good.

Sab · Nov 10, 2007, 08:27 AM // 08:27

If it's not going to fit in a standard Ranger template, you're wasting your time.

(elite/savage/distracting/mend touch/nat stride/apply/troll or purge/res or free slot)

Thom Bangalter · Nov 10, 2007, 08:29 AM // 08:29

Rangers already received a pretty significant and possibly inadvertent buff in this update.

Given the option of thoughtless buffs, thoughtless nerfs, or leaving something the same, I'll take the conservative route on it and pull for leaving them as-is.

Mist Walker Skarloc · Nov 10, 2007, 09:13 AM // 09:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corpselooter

So i've been watching rangers for a while in pvp, and really, the only skills that ever see use is Cripshot, RaO and BA.

What about BHA?

the_deSKtructor · Nov 10, 2007, 09:30 AM // 09:30

I'd like to see comfort animal and heal as one nerfed so that if ur pet is dead and it get ressed those 2 skills become disabled for 15 secs or so.

Corpselooter · Nov 10, 2007, 09:40 AM // 09:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mist Walker Skarloc

What about BHA?

BHA? PVP? Lulz.

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_deSKtructor

I'd like to see comfort animal and heal as one nerfed so that if ur pet is dead and it get ressed those 2 skills become disabled for 15 secs or so.

Lol.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

If it's not going to fit in a standard Ranger template, you're wasting your time.

(elite/savage/distracting/mend touch/nat stride/apply/troll or purge/res or free slot)

The idea is changing rangers from condition+poison spam to interruptors who punish casting a spell etc. As i mentioned before, you don't see much rangers besides cripshot/BA spammers. With some changes they can be made into energy deniers/interrupters. Plus they have a crappy self heal, as it's now.

EDIT: I'd also love to see some ranger stances in use, besides Natural Stride.

Natural Stride - 5e 15r. Stance. For 1..5 seconds you move 25% faster and have a 33% chance to block attacks.

Wasteland Squidget · Nov 10, 2007, 09:49 AM // 09:49

Your version of Troll and Debil shot are ridiculous. Debil is already solid e-denial, and it's only fallen out of favor because e-denial isn't an effective way to shut down most caster templates. As for Troll, while I won't deny that the existing skill sucks, rangers are already the hardest character to kill because of Natural Stride and Mending Touch. The last thing they need is defensive buffs.

In more general terms, I'm not sure what you're trying to do. Increase interrupting strength? You realize that rangers are already the best interrupters in the game, right? And that the main reasons people bring rangers are Savage and Distracting Shot?

Yue · Nov 10, 2007, 10:02 AM // 10:02

Quote:

Debilitating Shot - 10e 10r 1/2s. If this attack hits, your target is interrupted and loses 5..15 energy.

That would be probably make it one of the most broken skills in the game. RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO, I'd take that on a mesmer too.

Quote:

The idea is changing rangers from condition+poison spam to interruptors who punish casting a spell etc.

Pretty sure the current ranger templates are interrupters who punish spellcasting. Except they can also condi spam.

kvndoom · Nov 10, 2007, 10:05 AM // 10:05

Natural Stride is insanely powerful, even after the nerf some months back. It is one of the main reasons Rangers are as strong. the other is, of course, Mending Touch. 50% block stance + blind-proof = a very tough character.

Nerfing Mending Touch really won't do a whole lot of hurt to them. The buffed Antidote Signet will still get rid of Blind and Poison, and a Ranger's strength is not his damage, but his disruption. If the arrows hit, it's when they do the most harm. Interrupts and condition spreading. A MT nerf (such as scaling to remove 2 conditions at 8 Prot) will do this: a) limit which conditions can be removed, and b) remove the ability from the Ranger to assist by removing conditions from others. Toning Rangers down will involve 3 major changes:

1) Nerf Mending Touch. Removes 2 conditions at 8 Prot. It's one of those skills that's too good with 0 point invesment.

2) Move Antidote Signet to Wilderness Survival and make it scale the same way as Mending Touch and remove any condition. Then it works the same way, but only on yourself. Put recharge at 6 seconds.

3) Nerf Natrual Stride's mechanic to one of the following:

a) Natural Stride ends when you use a non-Ranger skill

or

b) Natural Stride ends if you are hexed or Enchanted (similar but opposite in effect to Whirling Charge, so that if you use it while enchanted or hexed it immediately ends)

As far as other builds, well, if they're using Heal as One, they're not using Rampage, so it can't be all bad.

Make Rampage end if you use a non- Beast Mastery skill. Not even energizing winds will be able to support that upkeep for long.

Wasteland Squidget · Nov 10, 2007, 10:12 AM // 10:12

Who was asking for a nerf to rangers? All I was saying is that they don't need ridiculous buffs for no reason.

Corpselooter · Nov 10, 2007, 10:41 AM // 10:41

I have to agree mending touch and natural stride are the biggest problems, since it pwnz melee characters and blind spam right in the face. However, for the fourth time, i'd like to see some diversity on ranger. More than apply -> cripshot, cripshot, cripshot, cripshot etc. The only place where different build are run is RA and AB, i think i said enough.

Resolve:
Tone down BA and Cripshot (again), maybe a very slight nerf to dshot and buff underused ranger elites. Fix Stride and mending touch. Please don't do it ether-renewal way though, since i have to admit Stride is one of my favourite skills.

Shuuda · Nov 10, 2007, 10:56 AM // 10:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corpselooter

BHA? PVP? Lulz.

BHA? bad? in PvP? Lulz. But really, this skill fits well into the common R/Mo template, With Apply poison as a constant cover condition, very nasty in arenas if you aim it right, and I've seen it used in GvGs in the past.

And Mending touch does not pwn blind spam, after all, every second you have to use it, is a second your not doing your job.

Yue · Nov 10, 2007, 10:59 AM // 10:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corpselooter

I have to agree mending touch and natural stride are the biggest problems, since it pwnz melee characters and blind spam right in the face. However, for the fourth time, i'd like to see some diversity on ranger. More than apply -> cripshot, cripshot, cripshot, cripshot etc. The only place where different build are run is RA and AB, i think i said enough.

Resolve:
Tone down BA and Cripshot (again), maybe a very slight nerf to dshot and buff underused ranger elites. Fix Stride and mending touch. Please don't do it ether-renewal way though, since i have to admit Stride is one of my favourite skills.

lol. That a joke? You realize that is the whole point of the class right? Rangers were designed to be utility characters. You won't find that much diversity on rangers simply because the bar compression with apply, dshot, savage, natty, mtouch, troll, etc is almost perfect. BA and Cripshot are used frequently because they provide the most utility. In fact, few rangers in gvg still run BA, since the utility provided by a spammable snare is much greater than simply having some extra damage for yourself. Until something like antidote signet is buffed to something similar to mtouch, nerfing mtouch ruins ranger bar compression. It's one of the few bars that is amazing if you know what you're doing, and nearly worthless if you don't.

moko · Nov 10, 2007, 12:11 PM // 12:11

it's like buffing warrior stances so they can tank as good as they can deal damage -- it's way inferior to what they can do and nobody is going to use it.

perhaps post these in the PvE forum? cause the changes there might matter more than in PvP. PvE is always after damage afterall.

Miriandel · Nov 10, 2007, 01:34 PM // 13:34

I remember from a patch preview (I think it was before Eye of the North, not sure) ANet announced a bow could be a damage weapon.

It seems only melee is meant to deal damage nowadays, which is an atrocious PvP setting.

The buffs to Zojun's shot and it's core brother improved bow damage somewhat but were quickly abandonned after the initial novelty factor.

Whatever bars I try on my rangers, distracting and savage shot always get back on the bar, not because they are the next best thing since sliced bread, but because there's nothing better a ranger can do.

Ask to elementalists what they think about it: it's more powerfull to swing a pieced of forged metal than commanding to storm and earth powers.

*yawns*

The true reason behind this is that ANet fears like plague anything able to spike even under difficult to achieve circumstances (besides assassin, don't forget the cultural background of GW's producer...) and better damage with a bow, or with anything not requiring skating around the target, is strictly forbidden.

ANet's view of PvP is pressure, and only pressure.
They probably think players are too dumb to play things like Power Block against caster spikes, Wail of Doom against ranger spikes and so on.
They are even nerfing rit channeling spells (lol?), while not touching Weapon of Aggression (sins, remember?).

Just go watch some top 100 GvG matches: you've seen 5? You've seen them all.

TheOneMephisto · Nov 10, 2007, 04:29 PM // 16:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miriandel

I remember from a patch preview (I think it was before Eye of the North, not sure) ANet announced a bow could be a damage weapon.

It seems only melee is meant to deal damage nowadays, which is an atrocious PvP setting.

What's wrong with this? Melee takes the most skill to use out of any possible damage type simply because you have to deal with positioning. Melee is also the easiest to counter and easiest to balance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miriandel

Whatever bars I try on my rangers, distracting and savage shot always get back on the bar, not because they are the next best thing since sliced bread, but because there's nothing better a ranger can do.

No, it's because interrupts are ridiculously strong in split (which your ranger will be doing) and because dshot is one of the strongest skills in the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miriandel

Ask to elementalists what they think about it: it's more powerfull to swing a pieced of forged metal than commanding to storm and earth powers.

Good thing good balance isn't based off of trying to be real. If you're going that route, why don't you ask elementalists if people should be able to survive having a meteor slam into them?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miriandel

ANet's view of PvP is pressure, and only pressure.
They probably think players are too dumb to play things like Power Block against caster spikes, Wail of Doom against ranger spikes and so on.
They are even nerfing rit channeling spells (lol?), while not touching Weapon of Aggression (sins, remember?).

No one wants to play a game of R-P-S where matches are decided by whether or not you bring the right counters to the other build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miriandel

Just go watch some top 100 GvG matches: you've seen 5? You've seen them all.

Then you haven't been paying enough attention. Of course, top 100 isn't really that strong right now, but if you watch matches between two really good guilds they put a ton of strategy and tactical management into their game. Just because the builds are similar doesn't mean that the matches are the same.

And either way, right now the metagame is in such a huge flux from the loss of LoD that it's crazy out there.

Thom Bangalter · Nov 10, 2007, 05:38 PM // 17:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yue

That would be probably make it one of the most broken skills in the game. RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO, I'd take that on a mesmer too.

I'd take it on flagger tbh.

Jaen · Nov 10, 2007, 08:12 PM // 20:12

There's way too much bad stuff in this thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by corpselooter

Practiced Stance - 5e, 15r Elite Stance. For 20...32 seconds, your preparations recharge 50% faster and last 30...126% longer. You attack 15% faster and your arrows are 25% faster.

Bar compression on this is overpowered but still won't see much play in GvG. With so much emphasis on spreading conditions apply is simply too good a cover condition not to take it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by corpselooter

Arcing Shot - 5e, 5r Bow Attack. If this arrow hits, it strikes for +10...34 and cannot be blocked, but moves 150% slower.

Burning Arrow - 10e, 5r Elite Bow attack. If this attack hits, it strikes for +7..20 damage and causes burning for 1..6 seconds

Debilitating Shot - 10e 10r 1/2s. If this attack hits, your target is interrupted and loses 5..15 energy.

Power Shot - 5e 5r. If this attack hits, it strikes for +12..30 damage.

Precision Shot - 5e 4r 1/2s. If this attack hits it strikes for +10..22 damage and cannot be blocked. This attack is easily interrupted.

Punishing Shot - 10e 10r 1/2s. If this attack hits it interrupts the target and strikes for +10..22 damage. If a spell was interrupted it does an additional +10..30 damage. (Sloth Hunter's shot says hi)

Sundering Attack/ Penetrating Attack - 5e 3r. Bow Attack. If Sundering/ Penetrating Attack hits, you strike for +3...15 damage and this attack has 20% armor penetration.

Arcing shot is still won't be used. That's not enough +dmg, you need sloth hunter's level damage with and a sufficiently easy condition to meet before any +dmg skills can dream of finding a place on a GvG ranger bar.

Burning Arrow - you actually reduced damage the +dmg on this. This skill is perfectly fine as it is. It adds a decent amount of pressure but outside of places like RA or AB it's far from overpowered. It's also been mostly replaced by cripshot since like others have pointed out, spammable snare is win in GvG.

Debilitating Shot - This skill in current form is fine. MAYBE it can stand to be
-10 nrg at 13 marks or something. Your changes are crazy good, even if this skill were to be made an elite.

Power Shot - I think Izzy just plain gave up on this skill.

Precision Shot - Ok, one thing, Izzy is extremely weary of making any changes to ranger +dmg shots that promote rspike. Your changes essentially make this a non-elite punishing shot for spiking purposes, because really, 95% of the people out there still running punishing(which is like what? 3 people?) don't run it for interrupting purposes.

Punishing Shot - This change might be ok, not too bad.

Sundering/Penetrating - These might be ok, a little overpowered but probably won't matter since they won't see much use in organized PvP due to lack of utility.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corpselooter

Resolve:
Tone down BA and Cripshot (again), maybe a very slight nerf to dshot and buff underused ranger elites. Fix Stride and mending touch. Please don't do it ether-renewal way though, since i have to admit Stride is one of my favourite skills.

At the end of the day, this is going to make rangers worse at what they do well and introduce things that make them mediocre AT BEST at things they don't do well. Bringing diversity to a profession is good, but doing so shouldn't make them impotent.

================================================== ========

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Troll unguent: 2 second cast

Agree with this.
================================================== ========

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miriandel

It seems only melee is meant to deal damage nowadays, which is an atrocious PvP setting.

The buffs to Zojun's shot and it's core brother improved bow damage somewhat but were quickly abandonned after the initial novelty factor.

Because no one runs a bow for damage. It has so much utility, running damage skills on it would be a waste. You can run Zojun's and some of the better +dmg skills now and have a decent pressure build but why give up Savage Shot and Dshot for it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miriandel

Whatever bars I try on my rangers, distracting and savage shot always get back on the bar, not because they are the next best thing since sliced bread, but because there's nothing better a ranger can do.

Dshot is probably one of the best skills in the game imo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miriandel

Ask to elementalists what they think about it: it's more powerfull to swing a pieced of forged metal than commanding to storm and earth powers.

Any considerations for realism in a fantasy game is ridiculous. Let alone letting realism get in the way of achieving balance in PvP. If warrior's don't do damage, they're biggest asset is their tankability. Well, "tanks in pvp? LAWL", should suffice.

Eles still do more damage in PvE with stuff like searing flames and all that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miriandel

The true reason behind this is that ANet fears like plague anything able to spike even under difficult to achieve circumstances (besides assassin, don't forget the cultural background of GW's producer...) and better damage with a bow, or with anything not requiring skating around the target, is strictly forbidden.

Sins are broken. Take away their ability to spike and they can't do anything. It has nothing to do with the "cultural background of GW's producer". Based on this logic one could argue that Izzy and Anet in general are a group of tree hugging hippies since Melandru continues break the rules applied to melee.

oh, btw I didn't address all the problems with this thread cause there was so much of it and I lost patience.